1 00:00:04,130 --> 00:00:07,810 Joshua Santora (Host): The soil beneath your feet, the food on your table, the roof over 2 00:00:07,810 --> 00:00:11,220 your head...these are luxuries on Mars. 3 00:00:11,220 --> 00:00:14,920 Getting there isn’t a problem, it’s surviving once you land. 4 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:17,790 Launch Countdown Sequence: EGS Program Chief Engineer, verify no constraints to launch. 5 00:00:17,790 --> 00:00:19,710 EGS Chief Engineer team has no constraints. 6 00:00:19,710 --> 00:00:20,710 I copy that. 7 00:00:20,710 --> 00:00:21,710 You are clear to launch. 8 00:00:21,710 --> 00:00:23,990 Five, four, three, two, one, and lift-off. 9 00:00:23,990 --> 00:00:27,410 All clear. 10 00:00:27,410 --> 00:00:41,110 Now passing through max q, maximum dynamic pressure. 11 00:00:41,110 --> 00:00:42,110 Welcome to space. 12 00:00:42,110 --> 00:00:43,110 Host: Welcome to the rocket ranch. 13 00:00:43,110 --> 00:00:44,110 I’m Joshua Santora. 14 00:00:44,110 --> 00:00:48,110 While our current focus is on the Moon, it is our stepping stone to the Red Planet. 15 00:00:48,110 --> 00:00:51,990 In this episode we’ll sit down with scientists and engineers exploring our planetary neighbor 16 00:00:51,990 --> 00:00:55,010 and preparing for the survival of those who brave the journey. 17 00:00:55,010 --> 00:00:59,480 First up, a trajectory analyst plotting million mile journeys to the Red Planet and beyond. 18 00:00:59,480 --> 00:01:03,870 Next, we’ll hear from two plant researchers who are figuring out how to grow food in space 19 00:01:03,870 --> 00:01:05,030 and on alien planets. 20 00:01:05,030 --> 00:01:09,420 And finally, we’ll dig deep into the daunting challenges that still lie ahead before humans 21 00:01:09,420 --> 00:01:16,179 can set foot on Mars. 22 00:01:16,179 --> 00:01:19,200 Insight is a Mars lander designed to give the Red Planet its first thorough check-up 23 00:01:19,200 --> 00:01:21,929 since it formed 4.5 billion years ago. 24 00:01:21,929 --> 00:01:27,240 It is the first outer space robotic explorer to study in depth the inner-space of mars-- 25 00:01:27,240 --> 00:01:29,299 its crust, mantle, and core. 26 00:01:29,299 --> 00:01:33,939 A few days before the insight launch, Kennedy’s Amanda Griffin sat down with trajectory analyst 27 00:01:33,939 --> 00:01:38,569 Caley Burke of NASA’s Launch Services Program to find out what it takes to send a spacecraft 28 00:01:38,569 --> 00:01:39,569 to the red planet. 29 00:01:39,569 --> 00:01:43,859 Amanda Griffin (Host): So, Caley, tell us a little bit about your role for Insight. 30 00:01:43,859 --> 00:01:48,259 Caley Burke: my role is the trajectory analyst here at the Launch Services Program. 31 00:01:48,259 --> 00:01:52,491 And so, my job’s to make sure that the rocket drops the spacecraft off at the right place 32 00:01:52,491 --> 00:01:54,400 and time in space. 33 00:01:54,400 --> 00:02:00,060 And so, we get these targets from the spacecraft team, who look at where they’re going, um, 34 00:02:00,060 --> 00:02:01,979 and what the capabilities of the rocket is. 35 00:02:01,979 --> 00:02:06,079 And so, I’m there to make sure that that rocket performs as it needs to together with 36 00:02:06,079 --> 00:02:07,579 the launch vehicle company. 37 00:02:07,579 --> 00:02:09,540 Host: that sounds like a lotta math to me. 38 00:02:09,540 --> 00:02:10,540 Caley Burke: It is. 39 00:02:10,540 --> 00:02:11,540 There’s a lot of equations. 40 00:02:11,540 --> 00:02:15,781 Um, those of you who are familiar with “hidden figures,” um, she developed a lot of the 41 00:02:15,781 --> 00:02:18,280 math that we use in our computer programs. 42 00:02:18,280 --> 00:02:21,230 But, um, we have to consider these really complex journeys. 43 00:02:21,230 --> 00:02:23,920 You know, it’s not just doing an equation once. 44 00:02:23,920 --> 00:02:28,060 Um, we’re always trying to-to make it as optimal as possible, and so there’s all 45 00:02:28,060 --> 00:02:29,220 these levers you have to push. 46 00:02:29,220 --> 00:02:31,540 You know, I think of it as planning a summer vacation. 47 00:02:31,540 --> 00:02:34,890 You know, how many different summer vacations are out there? 48 00:02:34,890 --> 00:02:39,410 There’s millions of ideas and so you have to kinda tailor it down to a reasonable one. 49 00:02:39,410 --> 00:02:42,700 Say, like, okay, we’re going on a camping trip and we’re gonna go in the summer. 50 00:02:42,700 --> 00:02:45,350 You start paring it down and finding the best one. 51 00:02:45,350 --> 00:02:51,030 Host: So, speaking of all of these possibilities, I understand Insight has a lot of launch attempts, 52 00:02:51,030 --> 00:02:55,820 and that’s a paring down from like an endless-- seemingly endless possibility. 53 00:02:55,820 --> 00:02:57,090 Caley Burke: There are. 54 00:02:57,090 --> 00:03:02,010 The jet propulsion lab, they do these things called pork chop plots, and so they consider 55 00:03:02,010 --> 00:03:05,590 many months they could launch and many months they could land on mars. 56 00:03:05,590 --> 00:03:06,750 And they look at different conditions. 57 00:03:06,750 --> 00:03:09,910 They’re saying, okay, you know, how fast does the rocket need to get the spacecraft 58 00:03:09,910 --> 00:03:10,910 going? 59 00:03:10,910 --> 00:03:12,420 How fast is it is-- if we arrive at mars? 60 00:03:12,420 --> 00:03:15,530 You don’t want the spacecraft crashing like an egg and breaking on mars. 61 00:03:15,530 --> 00:03:16,530 Host: No. 62 00:03:16,530 --> 00:03:19,280 Caley Burke: Yeah, we want a little bit softer of a landing. 63 00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:22,450 Um, what’s the weather conditions gonna be like when they get there? 64 00:03:22,450 --> 00:03:26,202 We wanna get communication during landing, so are the right satellites in place or are 65 00:03:26,202 --> 00:03:29,380 we looking back at earth at that time in the landing site? 66 00:03:29,380 --> 00:03:34,880 So there’s all these considerations they put into, and then they get it down to, um, 67 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:37,990 what they consider their ideal number of launch days. 68 00:03:37,990 --> 00:03:42,400 And so, we’re-- have 35 days we’re looking at that we’re launching, but only one day 69 00:03:42,400 --> 00:03:43,980 that we’re gonna land. 70 00:03:43,980 --> 00:03:49,040 And so, that was all pared down, but then once we get there, um, we don’t have just 71 00:03:49,040 --> 00:03:51,740 35 opportunities, you know, one per day. 72 00:03:51,740 --> 00:03:57,700 We actually have a two-hour window that we’re able to do on each day, and so that’s 25 73 00:03:57,700 --> 00:03:58,700 opportunities. 74 00:03:58,700 --> 00:04:01,530 So there’s 875 possible ones we analyzed. 75 00:04:01,530 --> 00:04:02,530 Host: Wow. 76 00:04:02,530 --> 00:04:03,530 Caley Burke: Yeah. 77 00:04:03,530 --> 00:04:07,630 And so a couple of those, um, we’ve already said that they don’t meet the requirements, 78 00:04:07,630 --> 00:04:11,480 which we have so many it’s not a problem to have a few that we lose. 79 00:04:11,480 --> 00:04:17,010 I mean, it’s great to have large windows because if there’s any weather conditions, 80 00:04:17,010 --> 00:04:22,020 if the range is clearing, if there’s a mechanical issue on the rocket, we have time to possibly 81 00:04:22,020 --> 00:04:25,270 fix it so that we don’t have to completely scrub that day, but— 82 00:04:25,270 --> 00:04:27,210 Host: And I know in Florida we often have weather conditions. 83 00:04:27,210 --> 00:04:28,210 Caley Burke: Yeah. 84 00:04:28,210 --> 00:04:30,260 Host: But the insight is launching from the west coast. 85 00:04:30,260 --> 00:04:31,260 Caley Burke: mm-hmm. 86 00:04:31,260 --> 00:04:33,380 Host: So you’re talkin’ about all the considerations you guys have to take into 87 00:04:33,380 --> 00:04:34,380 account. 88 00:04:34,380 --> 00:04:36,030 So to launch from California, what’s different? 89 00:04:36,030 --> 00:04:41,170 Caley Burke: So as a trajectory analyst, um, the main thing that I have to make sure is, 90 00:04:41,170 --> 00:04:45,580 uh, first of all, I have to make sure my computer program puts us at the right l-launch site. 91 00:04:45,580 --> 00:04:48,310 That, um, sometimes you get a trajectory-- Host: that helps. 92 00:04:48,310 --> 00:04:51,060 Caley Burke: --and you’re like, “hmm, that’s not in the right place.” 93 00:04:51,060 --> 00:04:53,230 But usually it’s pretty obvious at that point. 94 00:04:53,230 --> 00:04:57,040 Um, but a-a big thing that’s an indicator is what directions you can launch. 95 00:04:57,040 --> 00:05:01,050 So, each launch site we work at the range to figure out what are the safe directions 96 00:05:01,050 --> 00:05:02,440 we don’t endanger the public? 97 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:03,440 Host: Sure. 98 00:05:03,440 --> 00:05:06,740 Caley Burke: And so, here from Florida, we launch east safely, and we can go somewhat 99 00:05:06,740 --> 00:05:08,490 to the north and somewhat from the south. 100 00:05:08,490 --> 00:05:13,400 But from Vandenberg, um, if they launch east they’re flying over people, and so we don’t 101 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:14,400 want that. 102 00:05:14,400 --> 00:05:18,840 So we can launch to the southeast, as we are for, um, insight, and then we can continue 103 00:05:18,840 --> 00:05:21,720 going west and, uh, launch safely. 104 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:26,510 But, uh, we wanna make sure that everything happens with the rocket, uh, we don’t endanger 105 00:05:26,510 --> 00:05:28,340 anybody and nothing drops on somebody. 106 00:05:28,340 --> 00:05:30,150 If-- it’s a low risk as possible. 107 00:05:30,150 --> 00:05:32,680 Host: I’m sure we all appreciate that. 108 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:41,889 Insight Launch Sequence: Lift-off of the Atlas V, launching the first interplanetary mission 109 00:05:41,889 --> 00:05:46,190 from the west coast, and NASA’s Insight, the first outer space robotic explorer to 110 00:05:46,190 --> 00:05:47,190 study the interior of Mars. 111 00:05:47,190 --> 00:05:49,470 Host: Speaking of risk, once you get to mars, or near mars, we’ve heard a lot about planetary 112 00:05:49,470 --> 00:05:50,470 protection. 113 00:05:50,470 --> 00:05:51,470 Caley Burke: mm-hmm. 114 00:05:51,470 --> 00:05:54,400 Host: So what is that and what is your team doing to try to help mitigate that at Mars? 115 00:05:54,400 --> 00:05:59,060 Caley Burke: So we have somebody here at NASA who’s called the planetary protection officer. 116 00:05:59,060 --> 00:06:03,630 Um, which after a nine-year-old applied, I now-- jokingly, it’s the guardian of the 117 00:06:03,630 --> 00:06:04,630 galaxy. 118 00:06:04,630 --> 00:06:06,800 Um, that’s who-- why he said he’d be great. 119 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:11,640 But the planetary protection officer, um, looks to both protect earth from any microbes 120 00:06:11,640 --> 00:06:12,930 we bring from space. 121 00:06:12,930 --> 00:06:13,930 Host: Okay. 122 00:06:13,930 --> 00:06:16,419 Caley Burke: And then, we also consider Mars and Europa, where we think there might be 123 00:06:16,419 --> 00:06:21,620 life, we wanna protect them from any earth bugs and basically creating life somewhere 124 00:06:21,620 --> 00:06:22,960 as opposed to finding it. 125 00:06:22,960 --> 00:06:23,960 Host: Sure. 126 00:06:23,960 --> 00:06:27,860 Caley Burke: So, we do that, um, with Insight in a couple different ways. 127 00:06:27,860 --> 00:06:33,150 So, one, is the spacecraft, which we-we plan to have land on Mars, has been very specially 128 00:06:33,150 --> 00:06:34,150 cleaned. 129 00:06:34,150 --> 00:06:37,910 There’s a whole team that is working to make sure that there’s as few microbes as 130 00:06:37,910 --> 00:06:39,500 possible, if any. 131 00:06:39,500 --> 00:06:42,020 Um, but we don’t do that with the rocket. 132 00:06:42,020 --> 00:06:45,930 And so, we actually aim the trajectory a little bit away from Mars. 133 00:06:45,930 --> 00:06:47,440 We don’t aim it straight at Mars. 134 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:48,440 Host: Okay. 135 00:06:48,440 --> 00:06:53,170 Caley Burke: Um, so that if, um, it doesn’t perform as it should, or even if the spacecraft 136 00:06:53,170 --> 00:06:56,450 doesn’t perform as it should, we don’t pollute Mars. 137 00:06:56,450 --> 00:07:00,610 And so, what that means is the spacecraft has to carry extra fuel to account for that 138 00:07:00,610 --> 00:07:03,010 correction, but they already have to do corrections. 139 00:07:03,010 --> 00:07:07,600 They just have more fuel that they need to get closer to mars than if we could go straight 140 00:07:07,600 --> 00:07:08,600 at it. 141 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:09,880 Host: So many things you have to think about. 142 00:07:09,880 --> 00:07:12,150 So, what it-- it’s gonna land in November, correct? 143 00:07:12,150 --> 00:07:13,150 Caley Burke: Yes. 144 00:07:13,150 --> 00:07:15,080 Host: So what do the next seven months have in store for you? 145 00:07:15,080 --> 00:07:20,330 Caley Burke: So for me, um, it’s really about that 90 minutes that starts at lift-off 146 00:07:20,330 --> 00:07:21,600 to when we separate. 147 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:25,340 Um, and that’s-- it varies a little bit day-by-day and time-by-time. 148 00:07:25,340 --> 00:07:31,740 Um, but once insight separates, followed shortly by the Marcos, you know, I’m clapping and 149 00:07:31,740 --> 00:07:32,740 celebrating. 150 00:07:32,740 --> 00:07:34,270 Host: And the Marcos are CubeSat’s? 151 00:07:34,270 --> 00:07:35,710 Caley Burke: The Marcos, they are CubeSat’s. 152 00:07:35,710 --> 00:07:39,910 They’re each the size of a b-briefcase and they’re going along with insight to mars. 153 00:07:39,910 --> 00:07:44,000 They’re gonna be doing communications with it as it goes through the landing, which is 154 00:07:44,000 --> 00:07:47,860 such a dangerous point that if something were to happen during landing, we’d like as much 155 00:07:47,860 --> 00:07:50,710 data as possible so we can figure out what went wrong. 156 00:07:50,710 --> 00:07:56,270 Um, but once insight and the Marcos separate, um, then I’m gonna clap and cheer. 157 00:07:56,270 --> 00:08:01,770 And I began a process of data analysis, but all the systems I’m involved with have flown 158 00:08:01,770 --> 00:08:02,950 and have done their jobs. 159 00:08:02,950 --> 00:08:05,440 Host: So you can breathe easy about an hour and a half after launch? 160 00:08:05,440 --> 00:08:07,610 Caley Burke: Yeah, about an hour and a half, I’ll breathe easy. 161 00:08:07,610 --> 00:08:11,960 Um, but I’ll really-- I’ll breathe easy once I get the data and I do the calculation 162 00:08:11,960 --> 00:08:13,100 and we’ve met the requirement. 163 00:08:13,100 --> 00:08:14,100 Host: Fair enough. 164 00:08:14,100 --> 00:08:16,280 Caley Burke: Um, but, you know, it’s tough. 165 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:21,020 If anything goes wrong at any part of the system, it’s very-- it’s devastating. 166 00:08:21,020 --> 00:08:26,900 But, um, but you do wanna check, you know, that you’ve put it on the right path, and 167 00:08:26,900 --> 00:08:30,890 hopefully it doesn’t have to use a ton of fuel to correct for launch vehicle errors, 168 00:08:30,890 --> 00:08:36,200 because the spacecraft has budgeted a certain amount of their fuel for the launch vehicle 169 00:08:36,200 --> 00:08:37,529 errors, because we know they exist. 170 00:08:37,529 --> 00:08:38,909 It’s not gonna be a perfect shot. 171 00:08:38,909 --> 00:08:40,539 They’re gonna have to make corrections. 172 00:08:40,539 --> 00:08:43,090 Host: And so, on launch day you’re gonna be here at Kennedy watching? 173 00:08:43,090 --> 00:08:44,090 Caley Burke: I am. 174 00:08:44,090 --> 00:08:45,270 So I do have a role. 175 00:08:45,270 --> 00:08:48,830 I’ll be flight dynamics for NASA, but it’s not a critical role. 176 00:08:48,830 --> 00:08:52,140 And so, I’m here at Hangar AE in Cape Canaveral working on it. 177 00:08:52,140 --> 00:08:56,240 So I’ll be looking at the data, I’ll have my headset on and I can talk with the chief 178 00:08:56,240 --> 00:09:02,300 engineer, and so I’m ready to make sure, um, as we launch-- because we have all those 179 00:09:02,300 --> 00:09:06,200 times that we can launch, but the amount of fuel for each of them is a little different. 180 00:09:06,200 --> 00:09:11,610 So we’ll be looking at the weather conditions and all that stuff and making sure that, um, 181 00:09:11,610 --> 00:09:14,600 for everything that’s going on for that time, we have enough fuel. 182 00:09:14,600 --> 00:09:16,880 Now, for Insight, it’s not-- that’s not a big concern. 183 00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:18,960 We have quite a bit of fuel on this mission. 184 00:09:18,960 --> 00:09:25,610 Um, but then, after it launches I’m looking to see how the different numbers and parameters 185 00:09:25,610 --> 00:09:27,790 look to what we call the nominal trajectory. 186 00:09:27,790 --> 00:09:30,640 And so, that’s the one where everything is just as we modeled. 187 00:09:30,640 --> 00:09:31,930 But let’s say we’re off nominal. 188 00:09:31,930 --> 00:09:37,000 I’m there to let our chief engineer know, you know, if we can recover, if this is within 189 00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:40,950 the bounds we’ve modeled, that it’s just-- it’s an off nominal day, but the rocket’s 190 00:09:40,950 --> 00:09:42,080 still getting where it needs to. 191 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:44,140 Host: All right, well let’s all hope for a nominal day then. 192 00:09:44,140 --> 00:09:45,140 Caley Burke: Yeah, that’d be great. 193 00:09:45,140 --> 00:09:47,120 Host: And good luck to you and Insight. 194 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:49,710 Caley Burke: Thank you. 195 00:09:49,710 --> 00:09:54,240 Thankfully, all calls were nominal and insight successfully launched from Vandenberg on May 196 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:58,070 5th, and Caley was able to relax just a few hours later. 197 00:09:58,070 --> 00:10:02,070 At the time of this recording, the spacecraft is already more than 6 million miles from 198 00:10:02,070 --> 00:10:05,220 Earth and is scheduled to arrive at the Red Planet on November 26th. 199 00:10:05,220 --> 00:10:07,800 Happy trails. 200 00:10:07,800 --> 00:10:17,060 Dr. Gioia Massa: We’ve seen the movie “The Martian”, and Mark Watney uses his botany 201 00:10:17,060 --> 00:10:18,460 skills to save his life. 202 00:10:18,460 --> 00:10:19,460 We will need plants to survive on mars. 203 00:10:19,460 --> 00:10:21,740 Host: So that was our own Mark Watney, Dr. Gioia Massa. 204 00:10:21,740 --> 00:10:23,750 She’s a scientist here at Kennedy Space Center. 205 00:10:23,750 --> 00:10:25,800 Her research is growing food in space. 206 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:29,020 And also with us is Ralph Fritsche, who works on long duration food production. 207 00:10:29,020 --> 00:10:31,300 We’ll get to what that means a little bit later. 208 00:10:31,300 --> 00:10:33,450 So, Gioia, tell us a little bit about what you’ve been working on. 209 00:10:33,450 --> 00:10:38,430 Dr. Gioia Massa: So we work on food production to help grow food for the astronauts. 210 00:10:38,430 --> 00:10:42,700 We’re growing fresh vegetables right now on the International Space Station to supplement 211 00:10:42,700 --> 00:10:44,370 the astronauts’ diet. 212 00:10:44,370 --> 00:10:48,840 You can bring a lot of food with you when you go, and we do that on Space Station, and 213 00:10:48,840 --> 00:10:50,240 the packaged food is really good. 214 00:10:50,240 --> 00:10:56,630 There’s a lot of variety, but over time vac-packaged food loses its nutritional quality. 215 00:10:56,630 --> 00:11:00,930 And so, one of the things that’s really important is to figure out how to grow fresh 216 00:11:00,930 --> 00:11:03,839 vegetables to supplement that packaged diet. 217 00:11:03,839 --> 00:11:07,800 And doing that without gravity and without, you know, the sun, and all the other things 218 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:10,370 we take for granted on earth is kind of a challenge. 219 00:11:10,370 --> 00:11:11,370 >> 220 00:11:11,370 --> 00:11:12,370 Host: So how exactly do you do that? 221 00:11:12,370 --> 00:11:16,220 The Space Station, as, you know, many of our listeners probably know, is 225, 250 miles 222 00:11:16,220 --> 00:11:17,220 above Earth. 223 00:11:17,220 --> 00:11:19,540 So, you know, we have microgravity. 224 00:11:19,540 --> 00:11:22,920 It doesn’t have sunshine to the plant, so how do you-- how do you take care of that? 225 00:11:22,920 --> 00:11:27,190 Dr. Gioia Massa: Well, we do a lot of our growing in what we call controlled environments. 226 00:11:27,190 --> 00:11:29,320 So we’re actually controlling the light. 227 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:33,350 We use LED’s, light emitting diodes, to provide the light for plants, and we have 228 00:11:33,350 --> 00:11:37,260 a lot of research on that here at Kennedy Space Center, figuring out what’s the best 229 00:11:37,260 --> 00:11:42,460 light recipe to give the plants to get them to grow well and to taste good and to be very 230 00:11:42,460 --> 00:11:43,460 nutritious. 231 00:11:43,460 --> 00:11:44,800 Host: Have you figured out that light recipe yet? 232 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:48,390 Dr. Gioia Massa: It differs for every single plant we grow, so it’s a big challenge, 233 00:11:48,390 --> 00:11:49,390 actually. 234 00:11:49,390 --> 00:11:50,390 We have to do a lot of research. 235 00:11:50,390 --> 00:11:54,320 Um, the other thing that we’re working a lot on is water delivery. 236 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:57,110 Delivering water to plants without gravity is a real challenge. 237 00:11:57,110 --> 00:12:01,120 And plant roots don’t just need water, but they also need oxygen. 238 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:04,240 And in space, air and water just don’t mix very well. 239 00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:07,170 You may have seen the video of the astronaut wringing out the wet washcloth. 240 00:12:07,170 --> 00:12:08,170 Host: mm-hmm. 241 00:12:08,170 --> 00:12:10,850 Dr. Gioia Massa: Where the water crawls around his hand, you know. 242 00:12:10,850 --> 00:12:13,269 It’s surface, um, surface tension. 243 00:12:13,269 --> 00:12:17,120 And so, if you think of that as a plant root, it just gets drowned in water. 244 00:12:17,120 --> 00:12:20,550 So we have to figure out the right way to do a lot of water and air balancing. 245 00:12:20,550 --> 00:12:23,800 And-and actually, that’s one of the things we’re working on with food production. 246 00:12:23,800 --> 00:12:25,020 Ralph can talk more about that. 247 00:12:25,020 --> 00:12:27,440 Ralph Fritsche: Yeah, that’s where I come in. 248 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:30,019 Um, we have the plant scientists and we also have engineers. 249 00:12:30,019 --> 00:12:34,850 And I think the real challenge is to take the knowledge that the scientists have in 250 00:12:34,850 --> 00:12:39,890 how to grow plants and kind of merge that with the engineering expertise that the talent 251 00:12:39,890 --> 00:12:42,200 we have here at KSC can provide. 252 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:46,420 It-it’s interesting that you get to a certain point with the plant scientists where their 253 00:12:46,420 --> 00:12:48,560 engineering skills tend to run out. 254 00:12:48,560 --> 00:12:50,959 You’re at the fringe of-- the boundary of their knowledge. 255 00:12:50,959 --> 00:12:53,990 And then you have the engineers come along and-and they really-- most-- for the most 256 00:12:53,990 --> 00:12:57,880 part know little to nothing about plants, unless they grew on a farm. 257 00:12:57,880 --> 00:13:02,860 So it’s trying to merge those two cultures into a successful collaboration that really 258 00:13:02,860 --> 00:13:04,600 enables us to push forward. 259 00:13:04,600 --> 00:13:07,100 And water delivery right now is our first challenge. 260 00:13:07,100 --> 00:13:08,260 Host: you’ve had successes. 261 00:13:08,260 --> 00:13:09,500 I’ve seen astronauts eating lettuce. 262 00:13:09,500 --> 00:13:11,180 Astronauts on the Space Station: that’s awesome. 263 00:13:11,180 --> 00:13:12,640 It’s good-- tastes good? 264 00:13:12,640 --> 00:13:13,640 Yeah. 265 00:13:13,640 --> 00:13:14,640 I like that. 266 00:13:14,640 --> 00:13:15,910 Kind of like arugula. 267 00:13:15,910 --> 00:13:20,650 Host: I know here on earth we-we’ve kinda had a lot of scares with lettuce lately. 268 00:13:20,650 --> 00:13:22,980 Um, are there the same concerns in space? 269 00:13:22,980 --> 00:13:24,570 Dr. Gioia Massa: Actually, no. 270 00:13:24,570 --> 00:13:28,790 There are some food safety concerns in space, ‘cause we have to worry about what microorganisms 271 00:13:28,790 --> 00:13:31,680 might be in the environment just kinda floating around. 272 00:13:31,680 --> 00:13:35,750 But most of the lettuce concerns or the food safety scares we have on earth are from things 273 00:13:35,750 --> 00:13:38,320 like animals getting into the field. 274 00:13:38,320 --> 00:13:42,830 So we don’t really have any of those issues, but we do have to, you know, do due diligence. 275 00:13:42,830 --> 00:13:47,070 We-we don’t want to put the astronauts at risk, so we wanna make sure that the food 276 00:13:47,070 --> 00:13:48,070 is safe to eat. 277 00:13:48,070 --> 00:13:52,270 And we’re also looking at new ways to clean the produce, because, you know, you-- it’s-- 278 00:13:52,270 --> 00:13:55,899 just like it’s hard to wash or, to water plants, it’s also really hard to wash your 279 00:13:55,899 --> 00:13:57,279 vegetables in space. 280 00:13:57,279 --> 00:13:59,850 Uh, so we have, um, groups working on that as well. 281 00:13:59,850 --> 00:14:04,370 Host: so for the space station, it makes sense that, you know, we can send resupply missions 282 00:14:04,370 --> 00:14:06,760 up often so they have, uh, a food supply. 283 00:14:06,760 --> 00:14:11,029 So, when we go to further destinations like Mars, where it takes six to nine months to 284 00:14:11,029 --> 00:14:13,560 get there, why is your work so important? 285 00:14:13,560 --> 00:14:19,930 Ralph Fritsche: So right now, I think we’re kind of, um, really at the benefit of having 286 00:14:19,930 --> 00:14:21,450 this close proximity to the earth. 287 00:14:21,450 --> 00:14:25,740 We don’t worry so much about the food that we are growing, uh, because it’s not really 288 00:14:25,740 --> 00:14:30,170 being required to s-- really supply additional calories and nutrition to the crew. 289 00:14:30,170 --> 00:14:35,279 Right now, it’s been primarily research and as an additive just to demonstrate a capability. 290 00:14:35,279 --> 00:14:40,070 But the further away we go, the more important and critical having that food as part of-- 291 00:14:40,070 --> 00:14:43,690 that we grow as part of the system, uh, capability requirements. 292 00:14:43,690 --> 00:14:49,940 It-it takes a lot of energy and a lot of money to get food sent from the ground up into deep 293 00:14:49,940 --> 00:14:50,940 space. 294 00:14:50,940 --> 00:14:56,980 Uh, we know that a crew of six, one-year stay on mars, its 26,000 pounds of food, 31 cubic 295 00:14:56,980 --> 00:14:58,709 meters of volume. 296 00:14:58,709 --> 00:15:04,130 And when I look at the next vehicle that we’re planning on putting up in, um, cis-lunar space, 297 00:15:04,130 --> 00:15:09,520 the lunar orbital platform, the gateway, that internal volume is only 51 cubic meters. 298 00:15:09,520 --> 00:15:15,180 So if we think about the amount of space required and the weight, uh, required to get off the 299 00:15:15,180 --> 00:15:19,720 ground to get to Mars, to get on the surface of Mars, to feed crews, we’re not gonna 300 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:21,020 be able to sustain that. 301 00:15:21,020 --> 00:15:25,610 We really, for the long haul, need to be able to come up with a bio-regenerative capability 302 00:15:25,610 --> 00:15:27,861 where we can really truly start looking at Earth independence. 303 00:15:27,861 --> 00:15:32,730 And so, you’re gonna see a transition from the pick and eat type of crops that we grow 304 00:15:32,730 --> 00:15:37,709 now into the staple crops, which really supply our calories, so that we can kind of offload 305 00:15:37,709 --> 00:15:40,089 that weight penalty for bringing things from earth. 306 00:15:40,089 --> 00:15:43,390 Host: so pick and eat-- so Gioia, can you talk a little about the difference between 307 00:15:43,390 --> 00:15:44,390 those? 308 00:15:44,390 --> 00:15:45,390 >> 309 00:15:45,390 --> 00:15:46,410 Dr. Gioia Massa: Yeah, so pick and eat are your fresh vegetables, things that you can 310 00:15:46,410 --> 00:15:47,570 pick and eat directly. 311 00:15:47,570 --> 00:15:48,959 So your salad crops. 312 00:15:48,959 --> 00:15:54,070 We work a lot with leafy greens, um, small fruits like tomatoes and peppers, um, maybe 313 00:15:54,070 --> 00:15:57,279 some herbs like basil that you could add to the packaged food. 314 00:15:57,279 --> 00:16:01,000 Um, maybe even some root crops, like a radish or a carrot. 315 00:16:01,000 --> 00:16:05,220 Uh, those are a little harder because, you know, without gravity it gets to be a challenge 316 00:16:05,220 --> 00:16:07,149 to-to-to harvest the roots well. 317 00:16:07,149 --> 00:16:08,149 >> 318 00:16:08,149 --> 00:16:09,230 Host: And you mentioned growing fast and-and flavors. 319 00:16:09,230 --> 00:16:12,519 And I know, uh, Ralph, you guys have been testing microgreens. 320 00:16:12,519 --> 00:16:16,850 Ralph Fritsche: Uh, advantages of microgreens is it doesn’t take much in the way of resources 321 00:16:16,850 --> 00:16:22,550 to grow them, and they are very dense in their nutrition, uh, they require less light. 322 00:16:22,550 --> 00:16:26,680 So everything with more-- growing microgreens is pretty much a positive so far. 323 00:16:26,680 --> 00:16:27,839 They have a lot of flavor. 324 00:16:27,839 --> 00:16:31,610 You can add them to the diet as an augmentation to meals, um-- 325 00:16:31,610 --> 00:16:34,950 Host: And I hear that the astronauts really love things that have a little punch of flavor. 326 00:16:34,950 --> 00:16:38,779 Ralph Fritsche: Yeah, and we can-- anything that you can grow as a typical salad crop 327 00:16:38,779 --> 00:16:40,500 can be grown as a microgreen. 328 00:16:40,500 --> 00:16:41,889 You just harvest it earlier. 329 00:16:41,889 --> 00:16:46,250 Uh, we’ve been experimenting with wasabi, things that have a real kick to them. 330 00:16:46,250 --> 00:16:49,769 There’s also some, uh, microgreens that we grow that taste like green apples. 331 00:16:49,769 --> 00:16:54,130 So we can add a lot of variety of flavor, as well as the nutrients, into the diet by 332 00:16:54,130 --> 00:16:57,650 growing something that’s simple, that doesn’t take up much space, and doesn’t require 333 00:16:57,650 --> 00:17:01,161 much of the, uh, consumable resources that we have to bring along. 334 00:17:01,161 --> 00:17:02,620 Host: Yeah, I imagine seeds are quite light. 335 00:17:02,620 --> 00:17:05,929 Ralph Fritsche: Seeds are light when compared to some of the hardware components that we 336 00:17:05,929 --> 00:17:07,010 have to bring up, yeah. 337 00:17:07,010 --> 00:17:08,939 And we can pack a lot of ‘em in a small space. 338 00:17:08,939 --> 00:17:09,939 Host: mm-hmm. 339 00:17:09,939 --> 00:17:13,630 Dr. Gioia Massa: So, one of the things we have to figure out is how seeds do over long 340 00:17:13,630 --> 00:17:17,620 durations, especially when they’re exposed to some of the radiation we may get on the 341 00:17:17,620 --> 00:17:18,810 way to-- the way to Mars, so-- 342 00:17:18,810 --> 00:17:19,810 Ralph Fritsche: Big thing, radiation. 343 00:17:19,810 --> 00:17:20,850 Dr. Gioia Massa: Yeah, radiation’s big. 344 00:17:20,850 --> 00:17:25,290 Ralph Fritsche: Everything we’ve done, um, in terms of growing plants for food in recent 345 00:17:25,290 --> 00:17:28,980 years has all been done in low earth orbit, in the protective environment of the radiation 346 00:17:28,980 --> 00:17:31,130 belts that we have here, the Van Allen belts. 347 00:17:31,130 --> 00:17:35,330 We don’t know what the effect of that radiation environment, the cosmic rays are gonna have 348 00:17:35,330 --> 00:17:37,860 long term on the seeds or the plants that we grow. 349 00:17:37,860 --> 00:17:42,200 So we’re gonna be looking at multi-generational studies to really observe those effects, and 350 00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:46,390 that’s why we need to start that kinda research as soon as we can and why we’re really hoping 351 00:17:46,390 --> 00:17:48,670 to get something incorporated onto the Gateway. 352 00:17:48,670 --> 00:17:52,580 Host: What would, like, a greenhouse look like on Mars, like, given the radiation concerns? 353 00:17:52,580 --> 00:17:53,580 >> 354 00:17:53,580 --> 00:17:55,910 Dr. Gioia Massa: Well, you’ll probably be underground. 355 00:17:55,910 --> 00:17:59,180 Um, you know, i think you’ll wanna be protected somehow. 356 00:17:59,180 --> 00:18:04,190 So maybe in the early period, you know, when you’re just there, you might be in a habitat, 357 00:18:04,190 --> 00:18:08,670 something that would launch on a rocket, and maybe you’ll have, um, you know, a habitat 358 00:18:08,670 --> 00:18:13,480 that’s outfitted just for plant growth that could provide those-those crops for the crew. 359 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:18,080 But later on, you’ll probably be-- I’d either pile dirt over the top of it, or you’ll 360 00:18:18,080 --> 00:18:19,080 be in a cave. 361 00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:20,179 Ralph Fritsche: Regolith, Gioia, it’s regolith. 362 00:18:20,179 --> 00:18:21,179 Dr. Gioia Massa: Yeah. 363 00:18:21,179 --> 00:18:23,549 Uh, over-- or you’ll be in maybe a lava tube cave. 364 00:18:23,549 --> 00:18:27,470 So you’d protect the crew and the plants from-from the radiation that’s hittin’ 365 00:18:27,470 --> 00:18:28,470 surface. 366 00:18:28,470 --> 00:18:31,250 It would also protect from things like dust, micrometeorite impacts. 367 00:18:31,250 --> 00:18:34,720 You know, there’s a lot of hazards on-on-on the planet. 368 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:39,760 Um, and then, you know, you’d be using either electric light, like LED’s, or maybe you 369 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:45,100 can use some light piping where you have a concentrating mirror, like a parabolic shaped 370 00:18:45,100 --> 00:18:49,300 mirror that will concentrate the sun and pipe it underground through fiber optics. 371 00:18:49,300 --> 00:18:55,480 But, um, you gotta remember the sun on Mars is-is 43-percent of what it is on Earth, so-- 372 00:18:55,480 --> 00:18:57,120 and that’s even without a dust storm. 373 00:18:57,120 --> 00:19:02,020 So you know, you’d have to have a lot of area that you concentrate to-to get enough 374 00:19:02,020 --> 00:19:03,020 sun to grow plants. 375 00:19:03,020 --> 00:19:05,730 Host: So, I read “The Martian”, I saw the movie. 376 00:19:05,730 --> 00:19:06,880 I’m sure you have, too. 377 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:07,880 Dr. Gioia Massa: Mm-hmm. 378 00:19:07,880 --> 00:19:08,880 Host: So mark Watney-- 379 00:19:08,880 --> 00:19:10,330 Ralph Fritsche: Wait, what was that-- what was that movie? 380 00:19:10,330 --> 00:19:14,350 Host: Uh, Mark Watney, you know, grew potatoes in that regolith. 381 00:19:14,350 --> 00:19:16,270 Um, are potatoes a good option? 382 00:19:16,270 --> 00:19:19,890 Ralph Fritsche: So, when it comes to what he did in terms of growing the potatoes on 383 00:19:19,890 --> 00:19:23,380 mars, um, once again, Hollywood takes a lot of liberties. 384 00:19:23,380 --> 00:19:27,440 Uh, we appreciate their efforts in showing the potential possibility, but, no, you couldn’t 385 00:19:27,440 --> 00:19:32,669 grow potatoes or pretty much anything with straight up Martian regolith the way he used 386 00:19:32,669 --> 00:19:33,669 it. 387 00:19:33,669 --> 00:19:38,620 Uh, regolith contains perchlorates and other things that are not conducive to plant growth 388 00:19:38,620 --> 00:19:40,549 or human consumption. 389 00:19:40,549 --> 00:19:44,100 So we would have to remediate those things, get those things out of the regolith before 390 00:19:44,100 --> 00:19:49,460 you could actually even consider adding nutrients to the regolith that would facilitate plant 391 00:19:49,460 --> 00:19:50,460 growth. 392 00:19:50,460 --> 00:19:53,020 So the way it’s depicted in the movie, not so much. 393 00:19:53,020 --> 00:19:56,250 Dr. Gioia Massa: But potatoes are a good candidate crop. 394 00:19:56,250 --> 00:19:59,650 They’re very nutritious, they’re very productive, um, and we’ve actually worked 395 00:19:59,650 --> 00:20:03,600 for a long time here at Kennedy Space Center on potatoes, especially our colleague dr. 396 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:05,510 Ray Wheeler, who’s a potato expert. 397 00:20:05,510 --> 00:20:08,450 You know, right now on space station, we don’t have any way to cook anything. 398 00:20:08,450 --> 00:20:10,200 We don’t even have a microwave. 399 00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:13,789 So we’re really just focusing on things you can pick and eat fresh, but as soon as 400 00:20:13,789 --> 00:20:19,030 we had a microwave or an oven or a way to cook, crops like white potato and sweet potato 401 00:20:19,030 --> 00:20:21,420 become a really good source of food. 402 00:20:21,420 --> 00:20:24,380 Um, and they’re easy to grow and-and they’re kinda fun. 403 00:20:24,380 --> 00:20:29,140 Host: So, can you speak a little bit about the psychological benefits of growing things. 404 00:20:29,140 --> 00:20:33,130 Like, when you’re going on a six to nine-month mission to Mars, like, how important is that 405 00:20:33,130 --> 00:20:34,370 to see something green growing? 406 00:20:34,370 --> 00:20:37,560 Dr. Gioia Massa: Well, I think it would be really important, but I’m a little biased. 407 00:20:37,560 --> 00:20:40,200 Um, you know, it-- we don’t really know. 408 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:44,660 We don’t have great data on that yet, but there are a lot of anecdotal evidence from 409 00:20:44,660 --> 00:20:49,179 the astronauts saying how much they like growing the plants, how much they really enjoy seeing 410 00:20:49,179 --> 00:20:52,330 them in that environment of the Space Station, which is very synthetic. 411 00:20:52,330 --> 00:20:55,110 It’s all plastic and metal and cables and wires. 412 00:20:55,110 --> 00:20:59,679 Um, so I think having that little piece of Earth with you when you’re living and working 413 00:20:59,679 --> 00:21:04,809 in a stressful environment, especially when you’re so far from home on Mars that, you 414 00:21:04,809 --> 00:21:09,200 know, it’s just a-a dot in the sky, I think that’s gonna be really important. 415 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:12,669 But then there’s the-the-the downside-- you know, what happens if you get too attached 416 00:21:12,669 --> 00:21:14,000 to your plants and they-they die? 417 00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:17,340 Or you know, you have an insect or-- not insect, a disease outbreak. 418 00:21:17,340 --> 00:21:19,080 Hopefully we won’t bring any insects. 419 00:21:19,080 --> 00:21:22,220 Then, you know, then that could be psychologically detrimental. 420 00:21:22,220 --> 00:21:24,020 So we have to look at all of that. 421 00:21:24,020 --> 00:21:28,540 We’re gonna be startin’ to collect some data on the psychological benefit or not of 422 00:21:28,540 --> 00:21:31,270 plants in space in the next couple of years on ISS. 423 00:21:31,270 --> 00:21:35,549 We’ll be doing questionnaires and surveys of the crew and actually collect some data 424 00:21:35,549 --> 00:21:36,549 on this. 425 00:21:36,549 --> 00:21:37,549 So hopefully we’ll know more. 426 00:21:37,549 --> 00:21:38,549 Host: That sounds really cool. 427 00:21:38,549 --> 00:21:39,549 >> 428 00:21:39,549 --> 00:21:40,610 Ralph Fritsche: But, you know, you can do some extrapolation, and-and this is not scientific 429 00:21:40,610 --> 00:21:45,669 at all, but we know from the food technology folks in Houston who we kind of support in 430 00:21:45,669 --> 00:21:49,360 terms with our food production activities, they’re very concerned about the quality 431 00:21:49,360 --> 00:21:51,850 of the diet from a palatability standpoint. 432 00:21:51,850 --> 00:21:55,030 Is the crew gonna like whatever we grow so that they would eat it? 433 00:21:55,030 --> 00:21:58,720 Uh, and they’re very concerned from the perspective that the crew has to give up a 434 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:03,919 lot of the comforts of home just going on spaceflight, and so the thought of sacrificing 435 00:22:03,919 --> 00:22:08,429 the quality and the enjoyment they get from their diet with that sense of taste is something 436 00:22:08,429 --> 00:22:09,650 that they don’t wanna have to give up. 437 00:22:09,650 --> 00:22:14,480 Dr. Gioia Massa: They found that people eating the same diets for long times get-get menu 438 00:22:14,480 --> 00:22:15,480 fatigue. 439 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:16,480 Ralph Fritsche: Unless it’s my son. 440 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:17,500 He likes chicken fingers every day. 441 00:22:17,500 --> 00:22:19,380 Host: I think that’s everyone’s child. 442 00:22:19,380 --> 00:22:20,429 Dr. Gioia Massa: Yeah, but-- 443 00:22:20,429 --> 00:22:21,429 Ralph Fritsche: There’s our solution. 444 00:22:21,429 --> 00:22:24,560 Dr. Gioia Massa: If we don’t have chicken fingers, um, you know, you might get a little 445 00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:29,040 bored eating the same diet year in, year out, you know, on maybe a two week cycle, even 446 00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:30,169 though it’s a really good diet. 447 00:22:30,169 --> 00:22:35,580 And so having this fresh produce to make it more interesting to-to give you more options 448 00:22:35,580 --> 00:22:37,650 of things that you can make could be really good, too. 449 00:22:37,650 --> 00:22:40,660 Ralph Fritsche: and-and that’s another interesting challenge we have where we’re constantly 450 00:22:40,660 --> 00:22:46,250 approached by people who have potential food production solutions, but the product that 451 00:22:46,250 --> 00:22:49,610 they’re developing is not something that you would traditionally find appealing, let’s 452 00:22:49,610 --> 00:22:51,460 say, in a regular diet. 453 00:22:51,460 --> 00:22:52,460 Host: Hmm, yeah. 454 00:22:52,460 --> 00:22:55,210 Ralph Fritsche: Even though it might be highly nutritious, uh, we’ve seen articles in the 455 00:22:55,210 --> 00:22:57,110 press recently about cockroach milk. 456 00:22:57,110 --> 00:23:01,200 Um, yeah, it might be really good for you, but how do you provide that to someone and 457 00:23:01,200 --> 00:23:02,200 have them eat it? 458 00:23:02,200 --> 00:23:05,799 Host: And I understand you’re also working with kids to help you decide the next crops 459 00:23:05,799 --> 00:23:06,799 to grow? 460 00:23:06,799 --> 00:23:10,030 Dr. Gioia Massa: Yeah, we have a wonderful program with the Fairchild Tropical Botanic 461 00:23:10,030 --> 00:23:15,700 Garden in Miami, and they have about 150 or more, uh, middle schools and high schools, 462 00:23:15,700 --> 00:23:19,990 and those students are involved with testing new crops for us for space. 463 00:23:19,990 --> 00:23:25,140 Student: Hi, my name is Giselle and I’m a 12th grade student at biotech high school. 464 00:23:25,140 --> 00:23:26,900 My question is for Ricky. 465 00:23:26,900 --> 00:23:29,789 If you could grow any food plant on ISS, what would it be? 466 00:23:29,789 --> 00:23:33,070 Ricky Arnold (astronaut): well, if I had my choice, it would be a barbeque plant. 467 00:23:33,070 --> 00:23:36,890 But, uh, since they don’t exist on Earth, uh, I’ll have to go with a, uh, some kinda 468 00:23:36,890 --> 00:23:37,890 fresh fruit. 469 00:23:37,890 --> 00:23:42,280 Dr. Gioia Massa: so if you can get, you know, 100 schools to grow one type of plant really 470 00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:46,600 well, when you have some kids watering not enough and some overwatering, and some classrooms 471 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:50,670 cold and some hot-- if that plant grows really well in that many schools, it’s probably 472 00:23:50,670 --> 00:23:52,390 a really good candidate for space. 473 00:23:52,390 --> 00:23:54,130 So we’re really excited. 474 00:23:54,130 --> 00:23:58,260 They’re generating a lot of data, they’re feeding it to us on Google Sheets, they have 475 00:23:58,260 --> 00:24:03,890 a statistician involved as well, and so we’re actually going to be flying two of the species 476 00:24:03,890 --> 00:24:07,260 that they down-selected on the International Space Station. 477 00:24:07,260 --> 00:24:08,260 Host: That’s amazing. 478 00:24:08,260 --> 00:24:09,260 Dr. Gioia Massa: Yeah. 479 00:24:09,260 --> 00:24:10,260 Host: Where kids get to be part of, you know, NASA. 480 00:24:10,260 --> 00:24:11,260 Dr. Gioia Massa: Yeah, they are so valuable. 481 00:24:11,260 --> 00:24:12,260 Yeah. 482 00:24:12,260 --> 00:24:13,260 Host: That’s awesome. 483 00:24:13,260 --> 00:24:17,940 That sounds like you guys have so many challenges between oxygen, and water, and radiation, 484 00:24:17,940 --> 00:24:19,960 and what kind of soil do you grow it in in space, and-and mass. 485 00:24:19,960 --> 00:24:21,789 Ralph Fritsche: We’ll have ‘em all solved by next week. 486 00:24:21,789 --> 00:24:22,820 It’s no problem. 487 00:24:22,820 --> 00:24:23,820 Host: Excellent. 488 00:24:23,820 --> 00:24:26,640 Dr. Gioia Massa: We have a lot of interns, so that helps. 489 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:27,640 Host: I love it. 490 00:24:27,640 --> 00:24:31,520 So, my last question, you guys: would you go to Mars and be that crazy botanist on Mars? 491 00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:36,600 Dr. Gioia Massa: A few years ago I might’ve, but now I think I’m pretty earthbound. 492 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:42,330 You know, I would like to go to space at some point, but, um, I’d- I think Mars is a little-little 493 00:24:42,330 --> 00:24:43,330 far away for me. 494 00:24:43,330 --> 00:24:44,330 Host: Ralph? 495 00:24:44,330 --> 00:24:47,809 Ralph Fritsche: I am strangely drawn to Mars, but I’m not a botanist, so I guess I can’t 496 00:24:47,809 --> 00:24:48,809 go. 497 00:24:48,809 --> 00:24:49,809 >> 498 00:24:49,809 --> 00:24:50,809 Host: You can still go. 499 00:24:50,809 --> 00:24:51,809 We still need project managers. 500 00:24:51,809 --> 00:24:57,220 Dr. Gioia Massa: Just don’t open the airlock. 501 00:24:57,220 --> 00:25:11,480 Rob Mueller: Kennedy Space Center is one of the world’s, uh, premier spaceports, but 502 00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:17,570 we also envision spaceports on other planetary surfaces-- uh, Mars, uh, the Moon, and even 503 00:25:17,570 --> 00:25:18,950 asteroids and beyond. 504 00:25:18,950 --> 00:25:22,850 Joshua Santora (Host): All right, so I am here today in the booth with Rob Mueller. 505 00:25:22,850 --> 00:25:25,000 Uh, Rob, what’s your official title here? 506 00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:30,130 Rob Mueller: I am a senior technologist in the NASA Kennedy Space Center Swamp Works 507 00:25:30,130 --> 00:25:31,409 innovation environment. 508 00:25:31,409 --> 00:25:35,600 Essentially, we’re developing the technologies that are required to operate in space-- for 509 00:25:35,600 --> 00:25:37,150 humans to operate in space. 510 00:25:37,150 --> 00:25:42,700 Speaker: Robert, let me add my congratulations, uh, to Jim Bridenstine as the new administrator 511 00:25:42,700 --> 00:25:43,700 of NASA. 512 00:25:43,700 --> 00:25:48,450 Jim Bridenstine: The reason we go to the Moon is because we wanna land Americans on the 513 00:25:48,450 --> 00:25:49,850 surface of Mars. 514 00:25:49,850 --> 00:25:55,419 And the technologies, the capabilities, the in situ resource utilization that we develop 515 00:25:55,419 --> 00:25:58,270 for the Moon will ultimately get us to Mars. 516 00:25:58,270 --> 00:26:00,720 It’s also why the Gateway is so important. 517 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:07,070 Having, uh, an-an orbital outpost around the Moon gives us more access to more parts of 518 00:26:07,070 --> 00:26:09,510 the solar system than ever before. 519 00:26:09,510 --> 00:26:14,540 Host: Okay, so we have rockets that can get people to Mars today. 520 00:26:14,540 --> 00:26:19,309 Uh, maybe not a lot of stuff with them, but-- so you strap me in in a rocket, I got a spacesuit 521 00:26:19,309 --> 00:26:23,820 on, I got some food and some water-- how successful of a mission is this to Mars? 522 00:26:23,820 --> 00:26:27,549 Rob Mueller: Well, first of all, you have to realize this is not a short trip. 523 00:26:27,549 --> 00:26:28,549 Host: Okay. 524 00:26:28,549 --> 00:26:33,590 Rob Mueller: And to-to compound that, once you get there, you can’t come home right 525 00:26:33,590 --> 00:26:34,590 away. 526 00:26:34,590 --> 00:26:39,270 If you had an emergency, the planets aren’t lined up the way the orbits work. 527 00:26:39,270 --> 00:26:46,200 And so it’s very difficult to come back from Mars, uh, without using a lot of propellant. 528 00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:51,860 And so, essentially, in the trajectory that we have planned, you would go there. 529 00:26:51,860 --> 00:26:57,409 Uh, it’s called a conjunction class trajectory and it would take you six to eight months 530 00:26:57,409 --> 00:27:02,330 to travel to Mars, and then, uh, you're committed to being on Mars for one and a half years, 531 00:27:02,330 --> 00:27:03,920 and then you can come back. 532 00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:08,270 So it’s a two and a half year round trip journey, and, uh, that’s what you’re signing 533 00:27:08,270 --> 00:27:09,270 up for. 534 00:27:09,270 --> 00:27:12,460 And-and so, that’s-that’s a big difference between the Moon and Mars. 535 00:27:12,460 --> 00:27:14,230 The Moon is three days journey. 536 00:27:14,230 --> 00:27:16,190 Uh, we did it during the Apollo missions. 537 00:27:16,190 --> 00:27:18,460 If there’s an emergency, as like in Apollo 13. 538 00:27:18,460 --> 00:27:25,299 Apollo 13 clip: your black team of flight controllers is now in station in mission control 539 00:27:25,299 --> 00:27:31,250 center, looking at possible alternate missions, as we have an apparent serious oxygen leak 540 00:27:31,250 --> 00:27:34,169 in the cryogenic oxygen in the service module. 541 00:27:34,169 --> 00:27:40,929 Rob Mueller: Uh, you can come back home relatively easily as compared to Mars. 542 00:27:40,929 --> 00:27:43,940 So those-those are the big differences between the Moon and Mars. 543 00:27:43,940 --> 00:27:46,990 Then, when you get to Mars, there’s, uh, an atmosphere. 544 00:27:46,990 --> 00:27:53,090 It’s about 1% of the Earth’s atmosphere in density, and, uh, uh, you would think that 545 00:27:53,090 --> 00:27:57,220 that’s a good thing, uh, and it’s-it’s good and bad. 546 00:27:57,220 --> 00:28:02,429 When you try to land on Mars and you come into the atmosphere, it helps because it provides 547 00:28:02,429 --> 00:28:04,150 friction, which slows you down. 548 00:28:04,150 --> 00:28:10,740 However, that friction creates heat, and then that will cause problems for your spacecraft, 549 00:28:10,740 --> 00:28:13,590 and so you need heat shields and those kind of things. 550 00:28:13,590 --> 00:28:19,210 But the atmosphere isn’t dense enough to really slow you down, so you need more time. 551 00:28:19,210 --> 00:28:23,299 In fact, there’s many places on Mars where we cannot land today because the altitude 552 00:28:23,299 --> 00:28:24,299 is too high. 553 00:28:24,299 --> 00:28:25,299 You don’t have enough time to land. 554 00:28:25,299 --> 00:28:28,070 The parachute’s open but you’re still going too fast. 555 00:28:28,070 --> 00:28:32,411 So we land in the valleys on Mars and low areas, and that’s just a reality of going 556 00:28:34,570 --> 00:28:33,411 to Mars. 557 00:28:34,570 --> 00:28:37,010 Host: What kind of things do we have to consider before we go? 558 00:28:37,010 --> 00:28:40,460 Rob Mueller: Well, let’s start with what we can do today. 559 00:28:40,460 --> 00:28:46,920 Today, the largest object we’ve landed on Mars had-had a roughly 1,000 kilograms, a 560 00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:49,820 little bit under 1,000 kilograms, the-the Mars Science Lab. 561 00:28:49,820 --> 00:28:52,720 That’s what we’re able to land on Mars today. 562 00:28:52,720 --> 00:28:57,140 In the future, the payloads we’re going to have to land on Mars for human exploration 563 00:28:57,140 --> 00:29:03,990 will be between 20 and 40 metric tons, so 20,000 to 40,000 kilograms per landing, and 564 00:29:03,990 --> 00:29:06,080 there will be multiple landings required. 565 00:29:06,080 --> 00:29:11,419 So that’s 20 to 40 times the capability of the systems we have today for landing on 566 00:29:11,419 --> 00:29:12,419 Mars. 567 00:29:12,419 --> 00:29:14,160 Then, you have to consider the humans. 568 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:16,930 The humans need to survive. 569 00:29:16,930 --> 00:29:18,590 That is, uh, important. 570 00:29:18,590 --> 00:29:19,590 Host: Pretty critical. 571 00:29:19,590 --> 00:29:24,299 Rob Mueller: And so, we’d like to not only have them survive, but-but really do well 572 00:29:24,299 --> 00:29:25,720 in space. 573 00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:28,789 But we’re still learning about that, and that’s one of the reasons we have the International 574 00:29:28,789 --> 00:29:30,159 Space Station. 575 00:29:30,159 --> 00:29:33,020 When we have a-a journey to Mars, it takes six months. 576 00:29:33,020 --> 00:29:37,429 In those six months, when you land, the first thing that could happen is you’ll have to 577 00:29:37,429 --> 00:29:38,650 do rehab. 578 00:29:38,650 --> 00:29:43,419 And so, you’ll spend four to six weeks doing rehab before you can ever walk on the surface 579 00:29:43,419 --> 00:29:44,610 of Mars. 580 00:29:44,610 --> 00:29:49,570 But on the other hand, you have to plug your spacecraft into the power plant right away 581 00:29:49,570 --> 00:29:51,390 or your batteries will run down. 582 00:29:51,390 --> 00:29:55,831 So now you have this dilemma-- you’re too weak to do a spacewalk on Mars because there’s 583 00:29:55,831 --> 00:30:00,900 a gravity environment because you’ve turned into, uh, some kind of jellyfish on the way 584 00:30:00,900 --> 00:30:04,240 to going to Mars, and you have to do rehab. 585 00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:11,600 So first, we have to figure out the biological and physiological, uh, issues with human health, 586 00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:16,049 and, uh, that’s what we’re doing today in the international space station. 587 00:30:16,049 --> 00:30:22,840 Uh, once we know a crew can be healthy and arrive at mars, and we have the landing systems, 588 00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:29,230 and we have, uh, done all the technology development required to land on the surface of mars reliably-- 589 00:30:29,230 --> 00:30:33,159 uh, we have to land in the same spot every time. 590 00:30:33,159 --> 00:30:34,750 So it’s one thing landing on mars. 591 00:30:34,750 --> 00:30:39,929 It’s another thing landing one spacecraft next to another spacecraft within, let’s 592 00:30:39,929 --> 00:30:42,169 say, 100 meters of each other. 593 00:30:42,169 --> 00:30:45,539 And, uh, and we also need propellant to come home. 594 00:30:45,539 --> 00:30:51,390 Uh, one of the things about our mars architecture is we need about 30 tons of propellant to 595 00:30:51,390 --> 00:30:52,559 come home. 596 00:30:52,559 --> 00:30:58,039 And when-when it takes a-a gear ratio, a ratio of 11 to 1 of the mass in low earth orbit 597 00:30:58,039 --> 00:31:02,929 to the mass you land on mars, so it’s-it’s not 30 tons anymore, it’s 330 tons in low 598 00:31:02,929 --> 00:31:03,929 earth orbit. 599 00:31:03,929 --> 00:31:06,840 And it’s-it’s even more on the surface of the earth on a launch pad. 600 00:31:06,840 --> 00:31:11,630 So when you, uh, work out all the numbers, you really can’t afford to bring all that 601 00:31:11,630 --> 00:31:16,419 propellant to mars to come home, so you have to make it on mars. 602 00:31:16,419 --> 00:31:21,370 And how we make it is we make it from the water and the carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. 603 00:31:21,370 --> 00:31:26,890 We combine the two using the sabatier process and we make methane and oxygen, and those 604 00:31:26,890 --> 00:31:29,490 are our propellants for coming home from mars. 605 00:31:29,490 --> 00:31:34,059 So it’s not just a-a pleasure cruise out there, and it’s-it’s-it’s not for fun. 606 00:31:34,059 --> 00:31:37,440 This is really advancing science in the solar system. 607 00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:38,440 >> 608 00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:39,860 Host: So you talked about local resources. 609 00:31:39,860 --> 00:31:42,820 I assume you mean things we’d find on the Moon or Mars. 610 00:31:42,820 --> 00:31:46,750 What I know of Mars, there’s no active streams, there’s no trees growing. 611 00:31:46,750 --> 00:31:50,000 So what does local resources mean, and how useful is that for us? 612 00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:53,670 Rob Mueller: Well, it seems like that when you first look at it. 613 00:31:53,670 --> 00:31:55,950 Host: So-so are-are there trees on mars? 614 00:31:55,950 --> 00:32:00,880 there-there’s absolutely everything that’s in a tree is on mars. 615 00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:01,880 Host: Okay. 616 00:32:01,880 --> 00:32:07,580 Rob Mueller: So what you have to do is you have to break everything down into its fundamental 617 00:32:07,580 --> 00:32:08,580 elements. 618 00:32:08,580 --> 00:32:14,510 Uh, we need far more education and far more science and technology in order to achieve 619 00:32:14,510 --> 00:32:18,340 the pioneering goals we have to expand civilization into space. 620 00:32:18,340 --> 00:32:23,090 And so what you have to think about is the periodic table of elements. 621 00:32:23,090 --> 00:32:24,529 So those are your building blocks. 622 00:32:24,529 --> 00:32:26,460 Host: So not trees anymore, not bricks. 623 00:32:26,460 --> 00:32:28,470 We’re talkin’ like, molecular level here. 624 00:32:28,470 --> 00:32:29,470 Rob Mueller: That’s right. 625 00:32:29,470 --> 00:32:35,270 So if-if you think of the elements as being your trees and-and your rocks and-and everything 626 00:32:35,270 --> 00:32:41,890 else that they use to-to build things, and so we can look at this at-at a, uh, maybe 627 00:32:41,890 --> 00:32:46,590 not molecular level yet, but at-- certainly at an elemental level. 628 00:32:46,590 --> 00:32:52,620 And then with the use of chemical engineering and other sciences, we can take these elements, 629 00:32:52,620 --> 00:32:57,100 we can use the-the minerals-- so, in space we have a lot of rocks that have minerals. 630 00:32:57,100 --> 00:33:00,950 We can break down the minerals, which are compounds, break down the compounds into elements, 631 00:33:00,950 --> 00:33:05,110 recombine them into new things, and those are the resources we will use. 632 00:33:05,110 --> 00:33:09,160 So what I like to say is we have a lot of energy in space from the sun. 633 00:33:09,160 --> 00:33:14,280 We’ll have a lot of resources in space in all the rocks and minerals that we have out 634 00:33:14,280 --> 00:33:15,280 there. 635 00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:18,660 What we’re missing is the technologies, so we’ll have to be clever. 636 00:33:18,660 --> 00:33:20,290 We have to invent new technologies. 637 00:33:20,290 --> 00:33:21,970 Host: Where are we in that process? 638 00:33:21,970 --> 00:33:23,730 Um, how far-- are we doing this yet? 639 00:33:23,730 --> 00:33:25,650 Are we just thinking about it? 640 00:33:25,650 --> 00:33:26,650 Where are we? 641 00:33:26,650 --> 00:33:30,669 Rob Mueller: Well, at the beginning of the show, you asked me where I work. 642 00:33:30,669 --> 00:33:34,350 And I work in a lab dedicated to doing this, to developing these technologies. 643 00:33:34,350 --> 00:33:40,320 It’s called Swamp Works, and it requires a lot of imagination, a lot of creativity, 644 00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:43,510 and so you have to set up an environment which is conducive to that. 645 00:33:43,510 --> 00:33:44,950 And, uh, it’s-it’s difficult. 646 00:33:44,950 --> 00:33:48,770 You’re really pushing the envelope of what’s feasible. 647 00:33:48,770 --> 00:33:53,100 Uh, what we’re doing is we’re looking at ways of using these resources. 648 00:33:53,100 --> 00:33:55,669 One good example is, uh, 3D printing. 649 00:33:55,669 --> 00:34:00,740 This is a new technology that’s, uh, barely 20 years old and, uh, it’s-it’s really 650 00:34:00,740 --> 00:34:02,370 changing the world. 651 00:34:02,370 --> 00:34:08,069 And it’s, uh, allowing us to look at new ways of manufacturing, uh, objects and structures. 652 00:34:08,069 --> 00:34:12,359 And so what we do is we actually use the local regolith, which is the crushed rock covering 653 00:34:12,359 --> 00:34:19,000 the surface of planetary bodies, and we use that crushed rock, and we make a concrete 654 00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:20,200 material out of it. 655 00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:23,529 And, uh, we actually 3D print with concrete. 656 00:34:23,529 --> 00:34:28,509 And we also have reinforcements in there which are basalt fiber, basalt glass fiber. 657 00:34:28,509 --> 00:34:33,730 So by doing this, suddenly all these things become feasible which before were not feasible. 658 00:34:33,730 --> 00:34:35,099 Now, where are-are we on that? 659 00:34:35,099 --> 00:34:36,619 We can’t do it yet today. 660 00:34:36,619 --> 00:34:40,879 Uh, typically, at NASA we have something called technology readiness level. 661 00:34:40,879 --> 00:34:42,399 It goes from 1 to 9. 662 00:34:42,399 --> 00:34:47,829 At 1 it’s just a-a basic principle that’s observed or formulated, and 9 has been in 663 00:34:47,829 --> 00:34:48,829 space. 664 00:34:48,829 --> 00:34:51,869 So we call this the-the ladder of technology development. 665 00:34:51,869 --> 00:34:56,379 And you have to go from one rung of the ladder to the next rung of the ladder, and that’s 666 00:34:56,379 --> 00:34:58,049 how the technology’s developed. 667 00:34:58,049 --> 00:35:02,999 And usually, at TRL 6, we’re ready for-- to be considered for a flight. 668 00:35:02,999 --> 00:35:04,720 That’s when it’s developed for a flight. 669 00:35:04,720 --> 00:35:07,579 So typically, from 1 to 6 you’re in the lab. 670 00:35:07,579 --> 00:35:11,520 And currently, these technologies like 3D printing with regolith, that’s at about 671 00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:15,440 TRL 4, I would say, and that’s happening in the lab. 672 00:35:15,440 --> 00:35:19,799 Once we’ve developed in the lab, we’ve proven that it works, then we can go and make 673 00:35:19,799 --> 00:35:22,899 a real system out of it for space. 674 00:35:22,899 --> 00:35:23,899 >> 675 00:35:23,899 --> 00:35:27,490 Host: So just takin’ that one, for instance-- obviously you can’t predict the future, 676 00:35:27,490 --> 00:35:31,009 but as-as the pace is going and as things are developing, when-when do you hope to see 677 00:35:31,009 --> 00:35:32,529 that technology in space? 678 00:35:32,529 --> 00:35:36,940 Rob Mueller: I would say realistically, it’s five to ten years away. 679 00:35:36,940 --> 00:35:41,450 Uh, a lot of it depends on the desire to do this. 680 00:35:41,450 --> 00:35:46,759 If we made it a priority, then we would put more resources on, more people on it, and, 681 00:35:46,759 --> 00:35:48,420 uh, we’d work it harder. 682 00:35:48,420 --> 00:35:52,390 So a lot of it just depends on-on how much of a priority it is. 683 00:35:52,390 --> 00:35:54,279 Uh, we’d like to see it happen. 684 00:35:54,279 --> 00:35:56,059 Uh, we think it’s a game changer. 685 00:35:56,059 --> 00:36:01,799 And, uh, so within five to ten years, we could do it, and we would probably test it on Earth 686 00:36:01,799 --> 00:36:02,799 first. 687 00:36:02,799 --> 00:36:08,869 And as a-a nice side benefit of this, a spinoff, we would be able to build houses on earth 688 00:36:08,869 --> 00:36:11,900 quicker and cheaper, and they would be hurricane proof. 689 00:36:11,900 --> 00:36:14,920 So these are all very beneficial things on Earth here as well. 690 00:36:14,920 --> 00:36:19,690 Host: So this technology not just good for the Moon or Mars, but it can be used here 691 00:36:19,690 --> 00:36:20,690 as well? 692 00:36:20,690 --> 00:36:21,690 Rob Mueller: Absolutely. 693 00:36:21,690 --> 00:36:25,319 It’s-it’s something where you can use local materials anywhere you are and then 694 00:36:25,319 --> 00:36:26,650 make a structure out of it. 695 00:36:26,650 --> 00:36:29,170 And it also gives the architects design freedom. 696 00:36:29,170 --> 00:36:34,309 So now you can make structures that aren’t just shaped like a square or a rectangle. 697 00:36:34,309 --> 00:36:37,480 All kinds of new shapes are possible, new combinations. 698 00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:38,859 And so it frees the imagination. 699 00:36:38,859 --> 00:36:42,420 And, uh, this is what we call design freedom. 700 00:36:42,420 --> 00:36:46,009 And once you have that, you can also create structures that are stronger. 701 00:36:46,009 --> 00:36:54,809 Uh, so as we know, we have, uh, severe weather events-- uh, tornadoes, hurricanes, earthquakes, 702 00:36:54,809 --> 00:36:55,859 floods. 703 00:36:55,859 --> 00:37:02,130 These will all require structures that are much stronger and, uh, can bear the brunt 704 00:37:02,130 --> 00:37:04,000 of these natural phenomena. 705 00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:07,980 And so we-we can do this with new materials and new technologies. 706 00:37:07,980 --> 00:37:10,410 And the cost will go down because of automation. 707 00:37:10,410 --> 00:37:17,029 So you combine all those three things, and you really have a completely new way of addressing 708 00:37:17,029 --> 00:37:19,009 the need for shelter. 709 00:37:19,009 --> 00:37:20,619 And everybody needs shelter on Earth. 710 00:37:20,619 --> 00:37:21,619 Host: Awesome. 711 00:37:21,619 --> 00:37:23,769 Rob, uh, thanks for bein’ here today. 712 00:37:23,769 --> 00:37:27,190 Excited to see your progress in the coming years, and excited to see this stuff get used 713 00:37:27,190 --> 00:37:28,329 on Mars someday. 714 00:37:28,329 --> 00:37:33,209 Rob Mueller: Yeah, we hope to use it very soon on Earth and test it here, and then we’ll 715 00:37:33,209 --> 00:37:36,380 go out into the exciting solar system. 716 00:37:36,380 --> 00:37:38,630 Joshua Santora (Host): That’s our show. 717 00:37:38,630 --> 00:37:40,829 Thanks for stoppin’ by the rocket ranch. 718 00:37:40,829 --> 00:37:44,940 And special thanks to our guests, our sherpa on our path to mars, Caley Burke, our plant 719 00:37:44,940 --> 00:37:50,219 people, Dr. Gioia Massa and Ralph Fritsche, and technology guru Rob Mueller. 720 00:37:50,219 --> 00:37:55,329 To learn more about all things Mars, you can head to mars.nasa.gov. 721 00:37:55,329 --> 00:37:58,229 There are also several NASA podcasts you can check out to learn more about the science 722 00:37:58,229 --> 00:38:00,900 happening all over our centers at nasa.gov/podcasts. 723 00:38:00,900 --> 00:38:06,180 And shout-out to my colleague Amanda Griffin, who helped with the interviews, our sound 724 00:38:06,180 --> 00:38:12,150 man Lorne Mathre, editor Frankie Martin, and our producer, Jessica Landa. 725 00:38:12,150 --> 00:38:14,650 Tune in next month to hear our episode all about traveling to the sun.